What Is Wagner’s Game?

Didn't come to army's aid in Liman, attacked its general, now building a fortification line behind it

Even with mobilization in full swing Prigozhin continues to recruit for Wagner in prisons. So yeah, the Russian state continues to pardon criminals for the benefit of a private corporationTalk about Neoliberalism. And you thought your public-private partnership in garbage collection was bad enough.

If I told you 10 years ago that Russia would be freeing convicts so that they can become Merc Corp employees, so that Russia can pay their mercenary company for their services, you would have told me I belong in a lunatic asylum. Yet here we are.

In other Wagner adventures, the state-backed corporation has started building a defensive line in Lugansk, popularly deemed the “Prigozhin line”.

What’s funny about this line however, is that instead of building it along the actually existing front line, Wagner is mostly building it along the old 2014-2022 contact line, deep inside Russian-held territory.

Already preparing for the army to lose north Lugansk

Why not build it where the actual fighting is? If you’re constructing defenses in Lugansk, why build them behind Svatovo where they may never become useful, instead of in front of Svatovo where they would have immediate utility?

Of course, putting them in front of Svatovo would have the effect of aiding the regular Russian military that is currently fending of Ukrainian attempts there. And helping out its competition may very well not be in Wagner’s factional interest.

Recall that Prigozhin took advantage of the Russian retreat from Liman to attack General Lapin (he echoed Kadyrov) in what was widely understood by Russian military bloggers to be a veiled attack on Shoigu and the Russian Ministry of Defense.

What’s interesting is that the outnumbered Russian army defenders at Liman actually did a good job of delaying the Ukrainians for three weeks. With a few reinforcements more, they might have been able to repulse them entirely. Why didn’t Wagner which has had men enough for continuous (if ineffective) offensive action against nearby Bakhmut reinforce the army at Liman?

Couple this with circumstantial evidence that Wagner was helping to magnify mobiki complaints against the military (1,2,3) and it’s a very murky picture. Does Wagner’s contribution to the war outweigh its inherent interest in hollowing out the Russian military and state? And how does one calculate how much bang for buck is Russia getting out of Wagner anyway? As a private corporation, it is much more media savvy than the legacy, bureaucratic military, but what is the real cost of a Wagner battalion to the Russian budget?

For three months Wagner has successfully advertised even the most minuscule gains it has been making on Bakhmut outskirts. It has provided for a nice contrast useful to the image of the company. While the Russians everywhere else were losing ground, only Wagner has been making gains, no matter how actually minuscule. However in the big picture that also means that for three months Wagner has been constantly attacking without actually getting anywhere. Has Wagner’s private little Bakhmut war, seemingly disconnected from Russian fortunes elsewhere, been a good use of resources? How much has taking a few hundred meters weekly cost the Russian taxpayer?

Ukraine’s oligarchs like Kolomoisky in 2014 equipped and sent out private armies to Donbass. This was bad enough. But at least this was the oligarchs’ voluntary contribution to the war that the Ukrainian taxpayer wasn’t on the hook for. Prigozhin meanwhile is on the one hand using Wagner to promote his patriotic credentials and raise his profile, yet on the other hand, is also sending a bill for services rendered to be paid out to his company. The Russian budget is at once financing his public profile, his private fortune, and his private military.

Nobody stands to benefit more from the war and more directly than he. Already the Russian taxpayer through no choice of his own has been made to nourish him on his bosom. At the very least he stands to make himself much richer, and if dice falls the right way he’ll be hoping to pose as Putin’s indispensable man and then his successor. (And if he has a competitor, well, he’ll be the only one with a private military.)

Funny how in 2022 one can be a mercenary captain, the literal picture of a war profiteer hiring out cash-motivated technicians of war killing in murky, non-transparent bargains yet somehow be confused for a patriot and even a “hero”. There was a time when mercenaries were common, but in those days nobody would have confused them for anything other than businessmen and rent-seekers. (And putschists if you’re not careful.)

  1. Zachariah MCNAUGHTON says

    Does anti Empire refer to US military industrial complex?

  2. Yuno says

    Further evidence that the “Russian-speaking” populations of eastern Ukraine were never more than dupes to be used cynically & expendably to further the plans of the *real” powers operating the Rus government(identical to those operating the USSA government!)

    and that the ‘neo-liberal’ nature of the Rus regime in place since Yeltsin’s departure has the very same character as that which operates the faux-governments of the west. Erik Prince’s “Blackwater” & Prigozhins’ “Wagner” share the same mold of intertwining corporate, MIC, governmental fusion; the deal which saw Wagnerites getting slaughtered in eastern Syria back a few years prior – much to the dismay of couch potato western russophiles –

    was that made between Putin and Prigozhin which was supposed to see the latter ‘rewarded’ with the oil fields under Kurd control, in exchange for the ‘off the books’ services rendered by the mercs who bolstered Assad’s flailing forces against the (Russkie-trained)”ISIS”(former Saddam intelligence/military cadre)unleashed by Obama’s phase of the War on Asia.

    Now in Ukraine, the St Petes Chef & bosum buddy of ‘the World’s Richest Man’ has taken liberties that only those privy to the former KGB Kolonels’ dirtiest laundry can pull off. The two head clowns – Prigozhin & Kadyrov – both know that the jig is up when Pooties ‘lease-expiry’ notice gets sent. They’re rushing to secure real estate in the ‘post-Putin Warlord’ phase of Russia’s long agony – which will see western parts of Russ trimmed and annexed into the forthcoming “Greater Podolia” shetl state and new holy land.

    It’s not been sufficiently publicized that a large cadre of anti-Kadyrov Chechens has left Syria to fight on Ukraine’s side – rhe Sheikh Mansur Battalion – and that the RedBeards numerous enemies back in Chechnia are simply waiting for the right moment to resume hostilities against him and Pooties regulars there. Combined with the fact that Turkish-speaking rebels in Bashkortostan Republic of Russian Federation have formally announced their jihad against Moscow has begun…

    the place we know as Russia is going to be dramatically different short months from the present moment in “POLICE ACTION” drama time.

    1. Blackledge says

      Love your posts, Yuno. Very educational, as always.

      1. Yuno says

        Thanks, your non-partisan missives are likewise edifying for us all; it should be noted that it’s only due to Brother Marko’s steady fortitude in dealing with the wave of filth tossed by the usual crowd of suspects who intended to extinguish this spark o light in a darkened tunnel that we have the opportunity to exchange ideas. Everywhere else they’ve managed to devolve even the most promising sites into the usual sewer of disinfo and distraction. Few site operators – including meself – have the forbearance to carry on when the inevitable neo-trot troll army arrives.

        1. Blackledge says

          Completely agree.

  3. Blackledge says

    The long-building trend of corporatism/fascism worldwide is a very bad thing for humanity, overall. That corporate-directed/paymaster-loyal groups of armed men – in RF, the USA, and elsewhere – adopting this corporate model have swelled in number is even worse, and portends a dark future. Consider carefully how various Roman generals and their respective legions behaved once they no longer felt constrained to stay out of domestic politics.

    Is an age of warlords soon upon us?

  4. Panos says

    Do we have an order of battle for Wagner units(if there are units,in typical military sense),and most importantly who is in operational command?Is it Prigozhin or Stavka/Surovikin?Because it is one thing to employ mercs,but letting them run an unrelated to anything and everyone else show is quite another.

    1. peterinanz says

      Let’s put it this way: Wagner solves several problems for the regime:
      On tactical level:
      Willingness, with modicum of skill, to get into CQB.
      Ability to absorb casualties without damaging combat morale/unit cohesion and affecting public perception.
      On operational level:
      Ability to form a task force of reasonable combat power. They provide infantry part; the regulars the rest: logistics and fire support. They have clout that, at least for that place/time can get some quality there. Even more importantly they are able to get the best intelligence RF is capable of.
      On strategic level:
      They can “work” where, for Putintards, simply doesn’t make sense. Putin fanboys will always keep asking that “why” because they are unable to see the reality. It makes all the sense, of course, for those who se the regime in Kremlin for what it really is.

      1. Panos says

        Thank you for your response.I had the same impression,that Wagner tactically/operationally is under the command of the regular army,more or less replicating the penal WW2 units of the Red Army.Atonement with blood etc etc.I would ask you though to elaborate,if you can,on the strategic level.Are you reffering to the syrian and african “jobs” only?Because obviously these operations have the blessing of the Kremlin.

        1. peterinanz says

          It appears that I wasn’t clear enough in my previous post. The problem is, it isn’t easy even for, say, those with some experience in such matters.
          The best way, for an inexperienced, is to approach this issue as “peculiar”. Clear military thinking isn’t helpful here. Requires some imagination and awareness of how criminal underground operates. I did say “peculiar”. …
          “…Wagner tactically/operationally is under the command of the regular army…”. No, it is not.
          Here is how it works:
          A decision is made on top level of RF to do something on the battlefield. Say…” we need to make an effort to appear having an initiative..”.
          BOTH Wagner management AND RF Armed Forces theater command work on the problem. “We’ll attack here and military will provide support.” They collaborate. The dynamics is …peculiar.
          On tactical level a Wagner unit commander will work with Corps staff. “We intend to attack here. We need from you……” And they hammer the plan.
          In execution it’s, again, peculiar. The iron rule of unity of command does not exist here. Wrapping somebody’s mind around this could be challenging. The “regulars” provide a framework. The Wagner works within the framework. The key is: Wagner aborts if the framework becomes unsatisfactory.
          Makes sense?
          So, re
          “…,more or less replicating the penal WW2 units of the Red Army.Atonement with blood etc etc…”
          No. There is nothing “Red Army” related to this debacle. That’s, also, something Rusophiles can’t grasp.
          As for
          “…..I would ask you though to elaborate,if you can,on the strategic level…”
          Try to see all of the Wagner involvement in Ukraine as: There are several guys on the top in RF. They intend to keep staying there. They have a paramilitary unit at their disposal. They use that unit as they see fit to achieve their primary objective.
          Now, they also operate within rotten structure; won’t elaborate on that. The result is the information is not good. And they, those several, aren’t that good either. The result is their decisions aren’t often good for their own good (pun intended).
          That’s why people who believe in Russia, Putin etc are baffled. Shifting perspective could help with that bafflement, BUT, would be traumatic experience most people are incapable of going through.

          The cabal, fundamentally, is buying time hoping for something to happen in the West which will help them with their primary objective. It’s possible. Nothing to lose. Them, that is. A LOT of Russians will lose a lot; not their problem.
          Managing PERCEPTIONS is fundamental in that approach. Own, domestic. Wagner has place there.
          It’s not even funny: people discuss/debate Wagner and not the staunchest Rusophiles do the same for СпН ГУ ГШ ВС РФ, Спецназ ФСБ “Альфа”, Spetsgruppa “V” Vympel, 45-я ОБр СпН.
          Clown World.

          1. Yuno says

            Too much emphasis on “Wagner” as a military entity, & not enough on Prigozhin as key “Capo” to Putin’s Mafiya-Oligarch Gangsta State dilutes the otherwise good summary of the relationship between ‘para’ & regular army formations.

            The “Chef” is Lansky to Pooties’ Siegel. He’s loyal to the Boss, but knows that in the end, the script ends the same way – Siegel’s losses at the Flamingo etc., were too serious to allow his ‘investors’ to excuse – exactly the same way that the Kolonels’ ‘losses’ in his “Police Operation” are becoming too serious to ignore, for those who backed him through the past two decades.

            As Putin becomes more isolated at the top, his reliance upon Prigozhin becomes more necessary, but pressure on the latter to OK the forthcoming ‘hit’ increases weekly. In preparation for the moment when he will have to ‘take sides,’ the Chef is trying to consolidate his position re the conventional forces by gaining bigger and bigger share of the ‘off the books’ budget which flows just like the “Pentagon” black budget, at the same time and loosening any remaining ‘accountability’ that might accrue to the Wagner situation re the top brass of RU armed forces.

            IN THE SAME WAY that USSA became a MAFIYA STATE in the aftermath of the JFK OP and the eventual ‘merger’ of the Lansky Hudaic Mob with the dregs of Rus gangster society that Guliani imported to bolster the takeover, so “Prigo” will attempt to merge his military might with the ‘post-Solntsevskaya’ structures of Mohylévych & the many former FSB-turned-mobster ghouls like Maxim Yuryevich Lazovsky, who set up the Kolonels’ false flag apartment bombing op, setting the mold from which latter day Chechen Pootie Poodles like Kadyrov would be created.

            Major gang warfare and chaos on the way in 3…2…1… right after the [closed casket]ceremony when everybody who’s anybody gathers to shed ‘crocodile tears’ for the phony CZAR/former World’s Richest Man.

            1. Panos says

              Since you people,you and Peterinanz,more or less share the same perspective on the explanation of RF’s odd war behaviour i would like to ask:Do you think RF can overcome the Rotten Structure equals Rotten Outcomes think WITHOUT losing the war?To be “stalinised”,centralised,purged of Prigoshins etc and fight the war,and win it of course,in a “proper” Red Army way?It is after all an existential war,hence for the “turf” of the “capos” you describe,and VVP,Medvedev etc own survival from the western “dear partners”.And War enforces his logic and burns out all obsolete and archaic ways and methods,we know that from history.What about the patriotic,Strelkovian shall we say faction or the communist party?Can it push towards such a direction?

            2. Yuno says

              Answering your Q as “this people” and nobody else… requires asking you a question in turn.

              Do you think that the armed forces of the USSA could pull off a ‘victory’ against a major foe at this point(think Afghanistan last year.)? I mean -short of the nuclear MAD option. The putative ‘Red Army’ you imagine prolly has even less chance.

              It’s staring us all right in the face – the plan is to eliminate ALL nation states – either by means of totally discrediting their administrations(the “trimpf-dark brandon stooge motif)to the point the populace beg to be ruled by whatever…. or protracted ‘half wars(the syrio-ukraine model).

              The death jab will do to the militaries whatever the ‘trans/gender/human/’ culture war can’t. One World Gov with cyborg ‘enforcers’ coming up … after the warlord phase.

            3. Panos says

              I disagree on the nation state demise.I think the whole concept of one government worldwide is just a fantasy the WESTERN(emphasis given)elites are selling to some dupes in EU and US,the same kind of dupes that “believed the science” on the convid case.However,as the convid reaction showed not only simply these dupes are not enough in numbers but ,more importantly, they do not have the grit to go against the,say,dutch farmers,canadian truckers and others that realise the existential danger such plans pose for them.These guys are just doing what they are told,nothing else ,and are unwilling to risk anything,much less to die on a hill for a cause.And i am not talking here about the so called third world,China and the CCP,or RF.The south african foreign secretary almost told Blinken to go fuck himself recently.Almost the whole “third world” population simply ignored the “saviour” jab.So there is no DESTINY that awaits us.It’s all on the table,and in my opinion the peoples will endure and in the end WIN to “inherit the earth”,or “lose their chains” per bible or Marx respectively.

              As for the war in ukraine,let us wait to see what happens this winter.RF might be as you describe but ,again,this is an existential war.RF makes it and survives as a state or doesn’t and fractures.The choice is stark and as we saw in the ukrainian case,the oligarch’s personal armies can’t win a war,the whole rotten eddifice has to rebuild on the spot and be victorious.

              NATO MUST BE DEFEATED.

            4. Yuno says

              Although I’m pretty ‘happy go lucky’ about the future, I do keep up with the “advances[sic]in science” which would allow the puppetmasters to pull off a future as I described it. To underestimate the extent to which their dystopian dreams & attendant “helpers” are waiting in the wings already is to undercut any serious plan for resistance and/or survival… imo.

              Also it’s a tad ‘hyper-optimistic’ to discount the [still to come]effects of the death jab on societies first, third or other world. Far greater % of each jabbed up than you seem to want to account for. I do not live in ‘the west’ and I do know what I’m talking about here. And even if China was initiator of the toxic brew and put little to nothing of that into it’s domestic jab, they’re still killin off folks left & right with ‘lockdownitis.’ But it’s the ‘disabling’ effects of the jab that matter most anyhow. The multitude of those unable to work, and in need of state subsidized perma-care will crash economies everywhere.

              Those of us who aren’t statist-inclined don’t see the demise of the nation-state as a big problem. While I would agree that the ONEWORLDGOV is likely to be a passing arrangement, it’s WHAT ELSE they have planned that gives a body to trepidation. The transhumanist agenda is clear… your estimate of their ‘weakness’ in being able to enforce it does not accord with my own impression of what is hiding behind the curtains.

          2. Panos says

            Very detailed,and time consuming,answer.Much appreciated.

            1. peterinanz says

              … you people,you and Peterinanz… i would like to ask…
              I assume the question is for me as well, so here it goes:
              “Do you think RF can overcome the Rotten Structure equals Rotten Outcomes think WITHOUT losing the war?”
              Quite unlikely. Besides, in the Clown World Clausewitz etc. doesn’t work, so you’d need to define what, exactly, “losing the war” means.
              :To be “stalinised”,centralised,purged of Prigoshins etc and fight the war,and win it of course,in a “proper” Red Army way?”
              Quite unlikely for “stalinised”,centralised,purged of Prigoshins etc. likely to “fight the war”, prolonged and including on own territory, no way to do anything related to “Red Army” way. That’s the past which can’t be repeated for a lot of reasons.
              “It is after all an existential war,hence for the “turf” of the “capos” you describe,and VVP,Medvedev etc own survival from the western “dear partners”.”
              It’s not existential war for most of elites and most of the plebs too.
              “And War enforces his logic and burns out all obsolete and archaic ways and methods,we know that from history.”
              Proper war. This ain’t it.
              “What about the patriotic,Strelkovian shall we say faction or the communist party?Can it push towards such a direction?”
              No, it can not.

            2. peterinanz says

              I have a sense where you are coming from. I had similar angle before the Scamdemic. My experience in…ahm…efforts….to somehow counter that where I live changed that angle.

              If/when you find time/inclination try to read this:
              Now, most people with your core values find that material at least uncomfortable. Will definitely take you out of your comfort zone and challenge core beliefs. Still, if I were you I’d give it a go.

              Overall, I tend to agree with Yuno on the topic on “what’s coming”. And, personally, that’s all what interests me at this stage. This war simply as part of that.
              This isn’t a place to discuss “what’s coming” and, really important “what can we do about it”. Open to suggestions. If somebody wishes to engage there I’ll post an email address.

            3. Panos says

              I have read Burnham’s managerial revolution.I didn’t like it,and i don’t like the kind of “Burnhams”,all those former leftists without connection with(and usually with a lot of hate for) the working class,no trade unions work etc that supposedly shifted to the other side because they “saw the truth”.Nowadays,since there is no longer USSR,they usually are Greens,but they always are like this,no real world reference,vague progressivism and in the end open HOSTILITY towards the people at the service of some Blairite or other centrist party,writing some high minded elitist bs at some “serious” newspapers or mediums.Fuck them.

              You know,there is another thing,a theory of mine.That all these Burnhamesque theories are there to demoralise people.If we can’t do anything because the powers that be are so very invincible and all knowing the only thing left is to regress to a serf like,passive existence.This is PRECISELY what these Schwabian 4IR types want,to run their game and the people to obey passively.Just an observation i did back in the 90s when political talk was still very much a street thing and you could still see who was pushing what,and where his merchandise was ending.I don’t mean something personal to you,don’t get offended.But i could see in these guys their AGONY about history as a proccess,about the CONTROL they KNEW they did not have.

      2. Oscar Peterson says

        I don’t see how it really solves any problems for the Russian government in this Ukraine situation.

        In the third world–Syria, Mali, etc–they can operate in small groups, conducting small-scale special ops and training third world militaries with the deniability/bypassing of public casualty aversion that you mention.

        But from what I can see, their total numbers can’t be much more than a brigade or so, which is a drop in the ocean at this point.

        In Ukraine, I think they are simply a stop-gap along with the Chechens, Syrians and whatever other cats and dogs are in there, pending the full introduction of the mobilized units.

    2. Oscar Peterson says

      Yeah, I’d be interested to see an OB for Wagner too.

      I see claims that it had 1,000 employees in 2016 rising to 6,000 in 2018 presumably because of Syria.

      But of course, “employees” are not necessarily fighters.

      I guess I really wouldn’t expect an OB to be readily and publicly available for organization like that.

  5. Jonah says

    OK, so Wagner is going to construct a *200 km* long defensive line in the REAR of currently held positions? Do people realize what this means? This means nothing else that the Russians ***KNOW*** that the Donbass is going to be a be a hotly contested region in the LONG-TERM – the suffering citizens of Donetsk and Lugansk be damned – , and even worse, that they will almost certainly retreat from their current positions!! And such foreknowledge can only be further confirmation of the fact that this is a contrived, FAKE war, whose sole purpose is the decimation of the slavic peoples, both Ukrainian and Russian, the destruction of the Western economies, etc etc etc for the benefit of the WEF Great Reset Freemasonic agenda!!!

  6. Oscar Peterson says

    The basic thesis of this piece is that Wagner is fighting its own war for its own ends and almost totally disconnected from what the Russian Army is doing.

    First, I see a few Maxar imagines online (aside from the one shown here.) But where does the full 200km line design come from? What is that source that says Wagner plans to build most of the line along the already significant Donets obstacle?

    And notice the “noose” in the extreme northwest part of the supposed belt. What tactical sense could it be to put forces up in that trap? And again, what source tells us that this is truly a plan they are going to complete per the RIAFAN map in the article?

    Possible uses for a line behind the existing troop positions:

    1. Fall back position for existing units on the front
    2. Defense in depth–“second echelon”–to be occupied by mobilized troop units
    3. Deception

    Number 1 suggests an insurance policy against AFU push prior to Russian counteroffensive this winter.

    Number 2 suggests a defense of what they now occupy rather than a counteroffensive. This is certainly a course of action. But is it viable for Russia to try to preserve the status quo while Ukraine is, perhaps, given more HIMARS that just target stuff at their leisure? The mobilized troops can not presumably simply be left to defend Ukraine over the long term, which would tend to favor Number 1 and/or Number 3.

    Number 3 would telegraph weakness and a defensive orientation while preparing offensive operations. All we really seem to have is a handful of images of defensive prep work and some dragon’s teeth which may not be properly situated. It gives the impression of being ready to give up everything north of the Donets, i.e., it telegraphs weakness.

    It reminds me of the Surovikin’s hinting that the Russians might give up Kherson and the West Bank of the Dneipr. That too telegraphs weakness. Is all the “weakness” part of a big deception plan for offensive operations? Or deception to draw some sort of Ukrainian attack into Luhansk that could be massively attritted and then set the stage for a counteroffensive?

    Marko’s suggestion that Wagner is merely doing something self-serving is possible, I suppose, but seems very unlikely to me. And again, the “noose” in the NW and the long length right along the south bank of the Donets make less sense than a defensive line built behind the front lines.

  7. Jonathan says

    The question is: What is Marko’s game?

    1. peterinanz says

      “The question is: What is Marko’s game?”
      That’s the easy one. Won’t try to answer it, of course.

      Let’s put it this way: as long as he doesn’t…ahm…”moderate”…. posters he doesn’t agree with, all is good.

      Now, by the very nature of sites as this, sooner than later he’ll either start doing it, for a couple of reasons, or he’ll close the site.
      Won’t try explain all that.

      Enjoy the infotainment here, while it lasts. Not long now.

      1. Yuno says

        “Now, by the very nature of sites as this, sooner than later he’ll either start doing it, for a couple of reasons, or he’ll close the site.”

        no need to explain – perfectly true – & understood. Except. Expect the exceptional here; the guy ‘went away’ in July or so, obviously extremely pissed & loaded down with the baggage of spite n malice that comes with running an actual ‘truth-telling’ site. But then he was baaaaack… full of spit n vinegar, carpet bombing the landscape the russo-talmudic trolls thought of as their ‘safe space,’ in a shock n awe manner. What a treat!

        As someone who’s ‘been there,’ and closed down their site rather than have to resort to ‘moderation,’ I can only say this – it’s up to those who appreciate & participate to do any required ‘moderation’ – the op should be writing, not wasting creative energy fighting trolls who’s aim is exactly that! The extent to which participants will pick up cudgels and actually fight to protect what they value is the ‘currency’ by which the site operator judges his efforts success(that and perhaps a few coins thrown his way!!)

        If you love this site…. defend it, tooth n nail. The enemy of TRUTH IN MEDIA never sleeps.

  8. peterinanz says

    “I have read Burnham’s managerial revolution.I didn’t like it….
    …I don’t mean something personal to you,don’t get offended…..”
    On the contrary. We’ve made our (mutual) positions clear which will help with further communication here.
    I don’t argue, debate or go into deeper discussions with people I am not on the same page with. If anything, the Scamdemic cleared futility of all that.

    I think there are two, practical, approaches to what’s in the store for us. BTW, new Brit PM looks as fast on the track on implementing it.
    One is activism. Another is some sort of “prepping”; not that one popular in USA but simply finding a group of people who could help each other in living under austerity and panopticon. Preferably in the same neighborhood or at least in the same part of a town/city.
    Time will tell which one is better.

    1. Panos says

      Btw i bought the machiavellians this morning,fortunately the book is translated(in greek) as i hate to read from screen.I will let you know what i think when i finish it,which is becoming a little difficult these days but i will push.

      1. peterinanz says

        From …”fortunately the book is translated(in greek)”….I assume you are a Greek. Avatar too.
        If the assumption is correct the next one would be: you probably know about what’s been going on in Greece recently. In short, that was the place, at the time, with very good parameters to try to effect a social change. Economy in bad shape, people not happy.
        My impression is that nothing came out of that. Nothing in favor of an average Greek, that is.

        Most people on the alternative, left or right, speak about (positive) social changes when economies in West, tank. Judging from Greek experience doesn’t look that way. IMHO, anyway.
        Some dystopian scenarios Yuno here hinted at are more likely. IMHO, too.

        The book does offer insights as to why is that. Or, better, what’s required to enact a change in society. Theory of elites by Mosca and Pareto could help there.
        Good luck.

        1. Panos says

          Mainstream political parties firmly represent the elites and pursue their political and geopolitical choices,this is what happened.Both in the case of the crisis,which continues for 12 years,and more recently the convid.Back around 2012-13 there were thinly veiled threats of a civil war from bankers and others,in case the SYRIZA(it was clear back then that they would be the next government)would indeed pursue an antiEU,Grexit strategy.They didn’t,because it is a mainstream party(and they are coward leftist socdems sob’s), but that didn’t stop the media from giving them hell for anything they did and anything they thought they did.

          Even the communist party(5% of the total votes now,8% in May 2012%)a “proper” stalinist party with serious trade union presence(which i vote,i am not a member though)followed the central guidelines in the convid case(it is a true pandemic,no political issues around it,follow the science,the jab is safe etc etc)and in the war where they follow the line of “two imperialisms” and even demonstrated outside the russian embassy back in the spring.Although to be fair they are hostile to the green agenda and the gender madness,plus they recognise and condemn “NATO’s strategic encirclement of Russia”,as they say.But it doesnt seem to be enough anymore.The old world is dying before our eyes,and there is not going “simply” to be an interregnum with monsters,as per Gramsci,but a monstrous and antihuman new world altogether.

  9. Jonah says

    I see my perfectly legitimate comment (no trolling, no foul language, intelligent germane observations) hasn’t passed the inquinazi/(“moderator”) in this site… It’s fascinating how much one can learn about who’s REALLY on the driver’s seat of a blog, simply by seeing what is considered legit or not by the inquinazi/”moderator”.

    What – “Marko”/”anti-empire” is also embroiled in the Freemasonic conspiracy – who would’ve thought?! lol

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