GAME OVER: CDC Puts the Covid-19 Fatality Rate in the Ballpark of Seasonal Flu

CDC's "current best estimate" is that Covid-19 fatality rate is 0.4% for symptomatic cases, 0.26% overall

See for yourself:

New estimates released by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention indicate that COVID-19 may have an infection fatality rate as low as 0.26% [Actually CDC’s lower bound is 0.1%], a number that is double the seasonal flu but significantly lower than earlier estimates.

Determining the infection fatality rate of the illness has been a critical goal of scientists around the world since the discovery of the disease in late November. Infectious disease experts were shocked at the end of last year and into 2020 at both how quickly the disease spread and how many of those who became ill ultimately died.

In early February, modelers at Imperial College London estimated that around 1% of infections of COVID-19 would ultimately result in death. That number, which is about 10 times higher than the seasonal flu, shocked much of the world, including the U.K. government and most of the 50 U.S. state governments, into shutting down major swaths of their economies and placing many of their citizens under strict stay-at-home orders.

Those high estimates have persisted in recent months. In early March, White House adviser Anthony Fauci said the disease was “10 times more lethal than the seasonal flu.” The Trump administration would eventually go on to urge temporary severe mitigation measures across the United States, including pulling children from school, limiting gatherings to fewer than 10 people, and refraining from eating at restaurants and bars.

And it’s just 0.05% for symptomatics under 50

Numbers have dropped over time

Over the past several weeks, however, the estimates of the fatality rate have brightened considerably. Driven in part by large-scale serology tests, which have consistently indicated that the disease is far more widespread and consequently less deadly than it initially seemed, scientists have lately been revising their fatality rate assumptions down significantly.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention this week continued that trend, releasing a list of what it called “COVID-19 Pandemic Planning Scenarios.” That document laid out five different scenarios for public health experts and government officials to consider, one of which the agency called its “current best estimate” of the parameters of the viral pandemic.

That scenario states that the overall fatality rate of infections that show symptoms is around 0.4%.

Yet the CDC says it estimates that around 35% of all infectious are asymptomatic [which is a huge underestimate], meaning that the total infection fatality rate under the agency’s “best estimate” scenario is around 0.26%, or a little more than twice that of the seasonal flu.

Source: Just the News


    I demand an arrest of all parties responsible..all mayors, all governors, all the federal government workers, and fema, cdc, who..all of you SOBs i am putting you under citizens arrest for needless, idiotic orders that cause this destruction of lives…TURN YOURSELF IN..dont make me have to come and kick your asses while putting you under arrest!

  2. voza0db says

    And they are still using a lot of “assumptions” that some studies already showed that we have immunity from previous SARS-CoV infections!

    Pre-existing immunity
    Source: Assumption, ASPR and CDC

    No pre-existing immunity before the pandemic began in 2019. It is assumed that all members of the
    U.S. population were susceptible to infection prior to the pandemic.

  3. Undecider says

    And now will come a bunch of excuses and hand wringing. Too big to jail!! No one will be held liable. We’ll get some circus acts for Q&A sessions for government with nothing of substance as the result.

    Bill Gates and Fauci will vanish from the scene. Talk of a mandatory vaccine and biometrics will hopefully fade.

  4. voza0db says

    They are just following the Protocol set up duing Event 201 and Davos 2020… The REAL FUN is about to begin.

    Those ~40 millions slaves without a job won’t get one at the same speed they lost it!

    The defaults, from individuals to small/medium/large business will start to enter cruise speed now that the first waves of the TSUNAMI are reaching shore.

    Some corporations are already filling for bankruptcy!

    But do not forget Modern Dumb Slave that your responsibility is to

    The SRF & Billionaires & jesters will take Good Care of you!!!

  5. ravenise says

    When the Spanish flu first appeared in early March 1918, it had all the hallmarks of a seasonal flu, albeit a highly contagious and virulent strain. One of the first registered cases was Albert Gitchell, a U.S. Army cook at Camp Funston in Kansas, who was hospitalized with a 104-degree fever. The virus spread quickly through the Army installation, home to 54,000 troops. By the end of the month, 1,100 troops had been hospitalized and 38 had died after developing pneumonia.

    From September through November of 1918, the death rate from the Spanish flu skyrocketed. In the United States alone, 195,000 Americans died from the Spanish flu in just the month of October. And unlike a normal seasonal flu, which mostly claims victims among the very young and very old, the second wave of the Spanish flu exhibited what’s called a “W curve”—high numbers of deaths among the young and old, but also a huge spike in the middle composed of otherwise healthy 25- to 35-year-olds in the prime of their life.

    “That really freaked out the medical establishment, that there was this atypical spike in the middle of the W,” says Harris.

    Not only was it shocking that healthy young men and women were dying by the millions worldwide, but it was also how they were dying. Struck with blistering fevers, nasal hemorrhaging and pneumonia, the patients would drown in their own fluid-filled lungs.

    Only decades later were scientists able to explain the phenomenon now known as “cytokine explosion.”

  6. Ort says

    It’s obvious to anyone with two working brain cells to rub together that the Megadeath Virus of Doom narrative was either a Big Lie or a colossal misjudgment by the would-be professional experts.

    I go with “Big Lie”, but the discrepancy between the original bloated predictions and the existential reality is a hard fact regardless of whether a Virus of Doom was launched as a bioweapon, escaped from a laboratory, or arose naturally due to the alleged bat-eating propensities of the heathen Chinese.

    As the article demonstrates, various mendacious public-health officials and dodgy, compromised international health institutions are retrospectively dialing down their sensational and inflammatory original dire predictions. Naturally, they will pretend that it’s just mankind’s good luck that things haven’t turned out quite so bad as originally guessed– or they will seek to preempt criticism by actually taking credit for the downward-adjusted statistics.

    That is, they will pretend that the reprehensible draconian “public-health” restrictions caused the lesser impact.

    In any case, will this encouraging trend precipitate a sane and badly-needed course reversal? If the Virus of Doom isn’t nearly as deadly as originally proposed, shouldn’t that justify backing off the, you should pardon the expression, lockdown, etc. “overkill”? It should— but hell no, it won’t.

    The drive to establish a permanent New Abnormal, triggered by the official terrorists’ rhetorical weapon– the Megadeath Virus of Doom narrative– will proceed apace. I was appalled to see how after the first couple of weeks after the lockdown regime was executed, mass-media incorporated the Doomstruck marching orders on every level.

    Not just national and international networks, either– the cheesy ads on local OTA TV stations were all replaced with new versions incorporating Virus of Doom dogma. This ranged from ads from local contractors promising that their workers scrupulously follow social-distancing and mask-wearing requirements, to infoganda glurge honoring healthcare workers and other “heroes” of the War Against the Virus of Doom.

    In the US, state governors were transmogrified into COVID Gauleiters. They have already begun establishing new agencies and bureaucracies to enforce upcoming mandatory public “tracking, testing, and vaccination”. They are spinning the creation of such COVID shock troops as a “win-win” outcome: providing employment to the vast numbers of ex-workers displaced by the lockdown regime and resultant economic downturn, plus doing their bit to ensure public health.

    Just this morning, I heard some state official enthusiastically reporting that the plans for the Trackin’ and Tracin’ Goon Squad have a two-year timetable. The authoritarians have the Big Mo, and won’t be derailed by factual information calling into question the whole premise of the New Abnormal. They might be derailed by strong bottom-up resistance, but in the US it’s doubtful that enough victims will push hard enough to force the authorities to back down and dismantle the command and control system they’re already implementing.

    1. Collectivist says
      1. CB says

        This site is a lie. Covid-19 fatality rate is 10 to 40 times the fatality rate of the seasonal flu.

        I wonder why this site is promoting lies…

        “Pro-Kremlin media have been spreading disinformation about coronavirus with the aim of “aggravating” the public health crisis in the west”

        1. Collectivist says

          “This site is a lie”

  7. Mary E says

    The covid19 pandemic was/is by design. The Feds planned another round of their 2008 scenario because it worked for the wealthy then..and now another 40% loss for the American people….in effect, it is an approximately 50% decline in the value of the dollar…and is giving the top 2% another huge windfall, a ‘gift’ from the American people. Didnt we read in or about 2011 that 2008 would happen again and that the next time it would be even more destructive and disastrous to Americans’ investments?! Yes we did and it was tossed aside as a market ‘adjustment’ in 2008… as told to investors by their financial planners and stock brokers…but now we see the pattern of deceit and evil behind this horrific state of affairs. NB: Brazil cuts the value of their money in half every few years because the government can’t handle their finances…..and this is exactly what is happening in the US.
    This ‘tweak’ in our markets has furthered the collapse of the money system and it isn’t going to be pretty from now on out….

    1. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

      Forget any kind of security or savings or health care for yourself and any children you have. Forget vacations. Forget most luxuries. Your vacations will be to the city park. YOU are now a second/third world peasant. I’m happy I’m 62 and most of my life was lived well in a partially sane country. My son and nieces and families will either see revolution – a good thing now – or a slow descent from periodic unemployment and lower middle class existences interspersed with poverty to mostly Mexican peasant level poverty and ignorance with high violence and rampant REAL disease… NOT the goddamn flu.

  8. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

    Here come the fraudulent, worthless rich fucks slowly backing away from their lies. They’ll throw the American peasants a few more crumbs and big, fancy patriotic celebrations during which Butch and Sissy Lou Dumbfuck can wear Army uniforms and John Wayne outfits and they’ll settle for a second to third world lifestyle with far fewer benefits and no job security.

    Just shoot me.



    1. thomas malthaus says

      If only Butch and Sissy Lou had invested in different assets years ago, Amerika might not have been so radically altered.

      1. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

        If only they had values other than beat your neighbor and moronic survival of the fittest…. It’s not what they invested in, you goddamn idiot. It’s a corrupt, rigged economic and political system that never even gave them a chance.

      2. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

        You’re a moron, aren’t you?

        1. thomas malthaus says

          That emasculated Russian-American temper and “id” won’t get you a benefits check or a job, Jimmie.

          I’m referring to holding gold, silver, lead, and tin if necessary to battle the imminent financial disaster.

          Do you have any of the four–one especially might be effective with a gun or rifle?

          Self-inflicted wounds are the worst.

          They never thought for themselves. They followed the free-thinking or intellectual line of previous ignoramuses with university and social media “credentials.”

          I understand the system all too well, Jimmie. I’ve largely avoided it with success. That includes not taking on a mortgage or a marriage with an almost certain guarantee of dissolution.

          Let’s hear your story, Jimmie.

          1. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

            I’m 6 months from retirement after a 38 year career, dumb ass. I’m fine. My country – the US – is deathly ill and Randian dumb shits like you are one of the primary diseases.

            1. thomas malthaus says

              Career as a what? Federal government employee. You took the easy way out.

              Those that can, do, . . .

              Finish off the remainder, Jimmie.

              I’m glad you’ve taken the big picture view, because your government service has assured most other nations are headed to the weeds.

              You must be so proud.

              Say something. Don’t let your ignorance and lack of soul stop you.

              If you’re a scholar of history, particularly the economic variety, you’ll realize this has been preordained for decades. Every country with a paper or digital printing press will experience what has or will, come forth.

              To have removed ourselves from the gold standard in 1971 essentially meant we were living on “borrowed time.” Like a loan gone bad, you might say.

              The irony that this could all collapse 49 years to the day (August 15, 1971).

              Your 38 years and a government pension doesn’t guarantee you a stress-free life, henceforth. Or are you 38 years of age with a melon-shaped skull?

              The world is deathly ill, but I’ll excuse your provincial and parochial focus as being
              a federal employee of some repute, it probably goes without saying.

              Are you you’re holed up in spanking-new bunker near the Ozarks?

              Congratulations on practicing democracy.

            2. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              Actually, I’m very proud of my career. I’ve worked on every continent. I’ve written testimonies for congress. I’ve briefed people you’ve only seen on the teeeveee. I’ve seen places, events, and people you’ll only read about. So, yeah, fuck you.

            3. thomas malthaus says

              I don’t know expletives, Jimmie. US military language?

              I don’t watch television. Perhaps because people such as yourself are associated with it and constant BS.

              You don’t have a conscience. Just an opportunistic mentality. A witness to global disruption and regime change.

              Give my regards to the Beave.

            4. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              The walled off, arrogant, selfish noble accuses others of having no conscience. That’s fucking hilarious. You are one sick fuck but I wouldn’t expect anything else in this place and time.

            5. thomas malthaus says

              You’re angry, Jimmie. I worked intermittently
              between 2008 and 2014. The recession, if you remember. Almost everyone but a government worker had long extended periods of such.

              You got me: A Randian-oriented construction worker of simple upbringing in a Midwestern state.

              How did you see through me?

              I’m a greedy member of the moneyed class. Probably less formally educated than you and it’s painfully obvious.
              Two years post-secondary education at my hometown college.

              I hope the Russians are getting this. God, your intellect and arrogance just astounds the masses!

              “The walled off, arrogant, selfish noble accuses others of having no conscience.” Your self-analysis by virtue of government service?

              I plead “UNCLE” Jimmie! STOP!

            6. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              I am angry because I know my country could be so much better than this. I’m done.

            7. thomas malthaus says

              Hopefully, it will be. You think I’m not обеспокоен?

              A hyperinflation will destroy many lives and businesses, to say nothing of this COVID-19 op.

              I know you’re done because you never started.
              Troll somewhere else.


              The global forest fire is here.

            8. cechas vodobenikov says

              “huck was morbid and haunted; he was a racist precisely because he did follow his conscience”. Sacvan Bercovitch
              obvious for anyone that is not a racist

            9. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              I did what I was best at. You seem to have a huge ego. I’ve known many far brighter than me who spent lives of intermittent employment and now have little or nothing.

              30 percent unemployment and rising and an arrogant dip shit like you thinks they are all just useless. The US has declined relative to the world in EVERY SIGNIFICANT WAY since the 1980s, when your Ayn Rand candy ass philosophy gripped it like a fever. The numbers and quality of life don’t lie. It has been a gigantic failure and the world knows. Enjoy your royal status here in the Congo you’ve helped create. Just don’t complain when the natives come to chop up your sorry fat ass.

            10. thomas malthaus says

              You’re a tit-sucker, Jimmie. That must be conscience-lowering.

              Your arguments are so well reasoned and articulated, I don’t know where to start.

            11. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              You can’t argue with the steady decline of the US under unregulated capitalism. It’s a failure in every measure. We’re now close to rock bottom, John Wayne, and your God is dead. Bankrupt.

            12. thomas malthaus says

              Who is my God, Jimmie? You can edit?

            13. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              Ayn Rand is your God. That delusional drunken whore who died on welfare.

            14. thomas malthaus says

              You’ve seem to have ignore any discussion of economic history.

              She wasn’t in US government service employ, Jimmie.

              She was essentially a free-marketer if memory serves. I don’t advocate
              communist and the statist-quo policies. By most accounts, she had similar ideas and beliefs.

            15. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

              You’re poorly educated. You have no clue about communism. No, I’m not a communist.

            16. thomas malthaus says

              As a “common sense government shill,” you don’t know what I’m informed about.

        2. thomas malthaus says

          Posted May 25th, 2020 at 9:37 AM (CST) by Bill Holter & filed under General Editorial.

          Remember 2 months ago when friends, family, and other acquaintances came to you asking for your opinion and even advice? Things looked very dour indeed and people for the most part were in full blown panic mode. They were going to lose their job, they were losing their money and if they left the safety of their home…they were going to DIE!

          For a brief moment, you were no longer an idiot. Still strange maybe, but because it looked as if everything was spinning out of control, it was you they sought advice from. It was you because maybe you were the only one warning them prior, or maybe THE only one they knew who had counseled caution? You might have even heard from people you hadn’t seen or heard from in years? You might have even had relatives that needed help financially and you helped them? Very briefly, you were no longer an idiot!

          Alternatively, some may have thought you even a bigger idiot than before? Some, maybe even many, only feared the virus and believed we would be back to “normal” in short order? This group believed you were dead wrong about the economy, the markets etc. Not only were you dead wrong but plain foolish because you prepped for something that would never come? (Even if it was not you who had to stand in line to purchase four rolls of toilet paper). In any case, you are still an idiot…again!

          The average person has been duped again for the umpteenth time. Yes we have had 39 million new claims for unemployment. Yes there have been (and will be) many old line corporations file bankruptcy, and yes a huge percentage of debt versus all sorts of real estate go into arrears but not to worry! Not to worry because the government has (and will) save us all. Not to worry because whatever is needed to spend will be spent and all will be good. Just look to the stock market as proof! While those 39 million new unemployment claims were being filed, the stock market climbed over 30%. The unicorn juice of the stock market not falling any further has served to calm the public nerve!

          But now for the reality. The reality is this, the next few months will likely become a financial and economic nightmare. Just as an atomic bomb exploding 10 miles away, you see the flash, you then hear the bang but nothing happens immediately. “Immediately” is where we stand today. The concussion and destruction is delayed but when is does arrive it demolishes everything.

          Plain and simple, the world was already seriously rolling over in the fourth quarter last year. You could plainly see this in may series, “trade” being the most obvious because it is the most difficult to fudge. The fateful day of Sept. 16 when repo broke should go down in infamy as the day the levee broke. The Fed was forced to pump $ billions day after day to keep that canary from being noticed. I will only say the virus was “convenient” because it has been cover for central banks to flood the grossly indebted, financially illiquid and insolvent system with new credit and liquidity. How fortuitous!

          Folks, we are already in a global depression as measured by unemployment. $ trillions in debt have gone unserviced for 2 months now and will never be paid on again. $ trillions have already been created and spent by broke central banks and sovereign treasuries. It has ONLY been this largesse that has prevented postponed financial carnage. “Normal” as we thought it to be back in January will never return because frankly, our past way of life was anything but normal! Is it really sensical to spend more each and every year than you take in and fund the gap by borrowing the difference? Can that be sustained? We are just about to see the answer to this, and the resounding NO will be in your face with clarity!

          Individuals, small businesses, large corporations, cities state and local governments, pension plans galore and even central banks and sovereign treasuries have been bankrupted. The “bankruptcies” are working their way up and down the line and spreading like wildfire because every failure either adds pressure to or creates another (more) bankruptcies. We have lived a financial life where everybody owes everybody and “liability” exists everywhere and in everything known as an asset. In many cases, what was believed to be an asset has very quickly turned into a liability. All that is now necessary for you to never be thought of as an idiot again is the realization that once believed assets, turned liabilities, BECOME UNWANTED LIABILITIES! ie. To whom do you sell?

          I believe this scenario will happen soon and happen with a vengeance. I have long said “confidence” would break for any number of reasons. And that is exactly what have now, ANY NUMBER of reasons for the average person to wake up to the fact the financial markets are completely fraudulent and bluntly, FUBAR’d! Vast wealth will be destroyed on a nightly basis from asset class to asset class and culminate in systemwide failures. The financial atomic bomb has already detonated, there is no going back nor “unseeing” it.

          But don’t fret, you won’t be an idiot for much longer. If you have done your best to prepare, that is all you could do and all that can be asked of you. At least you will no longer be an idiot! People will genuinely ask your advice on many topics, not just financial…because you are no longer an idiot. There is even more upside, relatives you haven’t been in touch with for years will show up on your front doorstep asking for advice, not to mention food, shelter, and a shoulder to cry on…because you are no longer an idiot!

          The above said, do not expect anyone to admit they were wrong. Nor should you expect any apologies for thinking (and treating) you like you were an idiot. Also remember this, once you let someone in your door out of the goodness of your heart…don’t expect them ever to leave (you would of course be an idiot if you believed this). Oh yeah, one last pretty obvious question…GOT GOLD? The only financial life preserver in a world flooded with debt…

          Standing watch,

          Bill Holter

          1. thomas malthaus says

            To Jimmy: Some people in this life never fully appreciated compound interest, car and house mortgage, raising and educating kids, health insurance, and periods of unemployment.

            Whose fault is that?

    2. Mensch59 says

      This vid might be a bit melodramatic, but it catches the zeitgeist —

      1. Collectivist says

        Only a fool would fall for that right libertarian garbage you posted.

        Pay attention:

        1. newestbeginning says

          Hmmm… they haven’t noticed that Trump (you know, the “government”, the highest “authority” figure in the country) is telling people to get back to work or starve.

          How strange, that those who decry government power, are goose stepping along with the actual “powers that be”.

          1. Collectivist says

            And no mention of the capitalist rulers.

          2. Mensch59 says

            I was under the (mistaken?) impression that the lockdown resulted in an economic lockout of workers from their workplaces.
            Last time I looked a lockout wasn’t an organized strike.
            Lockouts are for the benefit and interests of the owners.

            The actual socioeconomic powers that be are the billionaires.
            The political class — like Trump and past presidents and congress critters and judges and various State institutions & bureaucracies — work for and with the billionaire class. There’s no political class independent of the billionaire class (i.e. the powers that be).
            Does the billionaire class want a vibrant working class? No. Or does the billionaire class want to keep the working class disposable, cheap, mired in austerity, beset by precarious working conditions (including a 40% job loss among people earning less than $40K per year)? Yes.

            It’s been interesting watching you socialist champions for the working class cheer for unemployment and worsening social disruptions.

            “How did a temporary plan to preserve hospital capacity turn into two-to-three months of near-universal house arrest that ended up causing worker furloughs at 256 hospitals, a stoppage of international travel, a 40% job loss among people earning less than $40K per year, devastation of every economic sector, mass confusion and demoralization, a complete ignoring of all fundamental rights and liberties, not to mention the mass confiscation of private property with forced closures of millions of businesses?”

            1. CoCoLuv9491 says

              Bravo! Spot on!

            2. Mensch59 says


          3. Hadley Browning says

            And literally cheering on Trump as he sets up to sign an executive order that allows him to lie with impunity on social media and if anybody tries to fact check him he’s allowed to sue them. One step closer to changing the libel laws.

            1. VirGinYa says

              I posted last night that if Trump is reelected, we’ve ignored the history of 1930s Europe.

            2. Hadley Browning says

              The echoes of history are too many and too loud at this point. I just read the truncated version of his “Press Conference” where he only addressed withdrawing from the WHO and blaming China for his failure to protect 104,000+ Covid victims, and said nothing about what’s happening in our country. He’s inciting violence, threatening military action against US Citizens, and thinks he’s “saving the country.”

        2. James Peters says

          I take it you are unaware that Larken Rose is an anarchist?

          1. Mensch59 says

            These lefties in love with authority despise anarchy.

          2. Collectivist says

            He seems to be an anarcho-capitalist.

            1. James Peters says


            2. Collectivist says

              Not my thing.

          3. Collectivist says

            Where’s the (anarchist) anticapitalism in that rant?

        3. Mensch59 says

          Only a fool would call that video advocacy for anarcho-capitalism aka right-libertarianism. Why do you like presenting tourself as a fool, Collectivist?

          Left-libertarian Noam Chomsky considers libertarian socialism to be “the proper and natural extension” of classical liberalism “into the era of advanced industrial society”. ~ Chomsky, Noam (2005). Government in the Future. Seven Stories Pr. Open Media.

          1. Collectivist says

            Try again . . .

            Chomsky also said that, what passes for libertarianism, in the ‘West’ *is really the advocacy of : 1) opposition to the Public Sphere, not-so-cleverly disguised as opposition to ‘the guv’mint’ 2) total capitalist tyranny

            *Evidently, that includes many ‘Canadians’, also

            1. Mensch59 says

              Correct. What passes for libertarianism.
              I don’t have to “try again”. You could educate yourself on the left-libertarian political perspective, but I suspect you are too ideologically rigid and bigoted / illiberal to do so. If not, see Left-libertarianism – Wikipedia.

              You don’t want to discuss either universal liberalism or left-libertarianism in good faith. You want to attack, i.e arguing in bad faith by not giving someone else a fair hearing. That’s why you lie about some people being right-libertarians and racist white supremacist nationalists.

              Why don’t you compare ideologies with dreamy joe hill? You might have better communication.

            2. cechas vodobenikov says

              one observes how ideologically distorted US liberals such as col show themselves to be—they actually believe that US liberals r less fascist than the conservatives

            3. Mensch59 says

              I’m unsure as to how you describe “fascism” so I’ll turn to someone who might have more skill than yourself.
              “The broad area of scholarly consensus which now exists, admittedly one with highly fuzzy boundaries, is that: fascism is best approached as a genuinely revolutionary, trans-class form of anti-liberal, and in the last analysis, anticonservative nationalism. As such it is an ideology deeply bound up with modernization and modernity, one which has assumed a considerable variety of external forms to adapt itself to the particular historical and national context in which it appears, and has drawn on a wide range of cultural and intellectual currents, both left and right, anti-modern and pro-modern, to articulate itself as a body of ideas, slogans, and doctrine. In the inter-war period it manifested itself primarily in the form of an elite-led ‘armed party’ which attempted, mostly unsuccessfully, to generate a populist mass movement through a liturgical style of politics and a programme of radical policies which promised to overcome the threat posed by international socialism, to end the degeneration affecting the nation under liberalism, and to bring about a radical renewal of its social, political and cultural life as part of what was widely imagined to be the new era being inaugurated in Western civilization. The core mobilizing myth of fascism which conditions its ideology, propaganda, style of politics, and actions is the vision of the nation’s imminent rebirth from decadence.” From Roger Griffin, emeritus professor in Modern History at Oxford Brookes University who lectured principally on the ideologies and the values which have shaped the modern world.

              Given that fascism is both anti-liberal and anti-conservative, those who identify as “liberal” or “conservative” but who support fascism are thoroughly self-deceived. Either that or they want to be on the winning side. Fascism sure seems to be dominating both universal liberalism and traditional conservatism.
              This was an interesting article on liberal conservatism.

            4. Collectivist says

              “You don’t want to discuss either universal liberalism or left-libertarianism”

              Not really and not necessarily with you.
              For what?

              “That’s why you lie about some people being right-libertarians and racist white supremacist nationalists.”

              That’s why you like them, because I ‘lie’ (?) about them?

              You ARE them😎. . .on your journey . . .to nowhere.

            5. Mensch59 says

              That’s why you like [right-libertarians and racist white supremacist nationalists] because I ‘lie’ (?) about them?

              No, Collectivist. That’s why I dislike you. You’ll call someone who isn’t a right-libertarian a “right-libertarian” (i.e. you’ll lie) to suit your agenda as some sort of strategy. You’ll call someone a “racist white supremacist nationalist” who isn’t a racist or a nationalist or a white supremacist in order to try to win an argument or score some rhetorical point.

              And you’re going somewhere alright. You have plenty of company.

            6. Collectivist says


            7. Mensch59 says

              You laugh at the lying you do?
              If so, that’s perverted.

            8. Collectivist says

              “The Canadian duo were easy to figure out. That’s why I called him out last year. I knew that he would eventually be stabbing his friends in the back and embracing the dark side. They’ll probably warm up to him long enough for him to stab them in the back too. It’s easy to give people the benefit of the doubt when they’re honest and sincere. When you cross paths with people who will argue any side of an argument at the drop of a hat, then you’ve discovered someone who doesn’t believe in anything. You’re wasting your energy if you ever consider them an ally. They’ll stab you in the back while you’re sleeping…”

              A real (internet) friend

            9. Mensch59 says

              I don’t consider liars to be friends. I don’t consider character assassins (i.e. those who accuse others of “backstabbing” for those others choosing to follow their consciences) to be friends either.
              I don’t consider those who treat dissent as heresy to be friends either.
              I figured that this would happen once I started (1) writing about the illiberal mindset of “the Genuine Left”™ (2) quoting from Mark Fisher’s “Exiting the Vampire Castle” (3) writing about leftists willfully stuck in the Vampire Castle (VC) by refusing to exit (4) commenting on the characteristics of these leftists stuck in the VC (5) the differences among neo-anarchists and authoritarian statist illiberal leftists and left-libertarians.
              I’m totally at peace with my decision, although it meant a (temporary?) loss of some internet “friends”, who might never have been genuine friends at all.
              Whoever wrote this, I am skeptical that s/he understands “the dark side” from the light.

              From the Chris Hedges essay “Saying Goodbye to Sam”

              Life is a voyage, a discovery, including the discovery of death. It is about seeking truth, but also about experiencing wonder and awe, the capacity to love. The most fortunate of us make this voyage with someone with whom we share an intellectual and emotional affinity. Suffering and danger, as J. Glenn Gray, another great writer on war, wrote, does not create friendship. It creates its opposite, comradeship. Friends are not comrades. They do not revel in death and self-sacrifice the way comrades do. Friendship—and most of us, if we are honest, must admit we have only one or two real friends and some of us have none—is about descending to depths beyond articulation, gaining through the insights of the friend greater self-awareness and self-possession. The death of a friend is bitter and painful because it leaves us more alone, diminished. We lose a part of ourselves. Friendship is the most potent antidote to the trauma of war. “Its true domain is peace,” Gray wrote of friendship, “only peace.”

            10. Collectivist says
            11. Mensch59 says

              Groovy. You and Jeff Horste should skype and have coffeeklatsch.

            12. newestbeginning says

              “dressing to look poor”.

              “how are the flu numbers real but the COVID 19 numbers fake. How do you pick data you trust and don’t trust”.

            13. newestbeginning says

              You know, it is not just the “arguing any side of an argument at the drop of a hat” – it is doing it with such passion and RAGE, such self righteousness! Such indignation!

            14. Collectivist says

              Yeah. . .The kind of rage ‘homegirl’😎, used to unleash regularly upon, at least, one of them: calling him names that even made me cringe. . . while the other – actually AT HOME –
              stood by silently, staring at the vicious words being shoveled, from the graveyard, at him, on the screen for all to see. . .
              while WE were the ONLY ones who had his cyber spatial back.

              Now, he turns his back. . .
              But, new, nevertheless, as weird and as disappointing as it Is, I, sort of, see part of it
              (You know my view, the personal is political)😉:


            15. Mensch59 says

              Glad to be providing you and @newestbeginning:disqus some gossip.
              “staring at the vicious words being shoveled” and “endorsed the vicious cruelty”.
              You two are precious.
              As if either of you from your comfort zones — one extremely bourgeois and the other poor — know anything of viciousness and cruelty.
              Did either of you learn the lesson from elementary school “Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words can never hurt me”? I guess not. Don’t take social media so seriously, like it’s a war zone. Grow the hell up, both of you. You’re sounding like a couple of nattering church ladies.

            16. Collectivist says

              “You two are precious. . .”

              We knew that already.

              “Don’t take social media so seriously . .”


            17. Mensch59 says

              If I could down vote this a thousand times, I would.

            18. Mensch59 says
            19. Collectivist says

              More sterile stats from the cold-blooded, disembodied wannabe ‘intellectual’

              The reptilian brain.


            20. Mensch59 says

              You’re turning out to be quite the troll in addition to being an unapologetic liar. Pretty soon you’ll be joining the New Black Panther Party.

              I’ll do my best to NEVER post to you again or reply to ANYTHING you write.

              So long.

            21. Collectivist says

              “I’ll do my best to NEVER post to you againor reply to ANYTHING you write.

              So long”

            22. Collectivist says
            23. Mensch59 says

              Yeah. I’d downvote that too.
              All this attention being paid to Covid while HIV/AIDS, Tuberculosis, Pneumonia, Infectious diarrhea, Malaria — which kills many more, but most of them being poor people in developing economies — flies under the radar is so typical of concern trolls.

            24. newestbeginning says

              Hey, unemployed workers are just “human capital stock” that is ready to get back to work! – what the elitists say in an unguarded moment.


            25. Hadley Browning says

              That same White House imbicile was just on CNN repeating the same claim and standing by it.

            26. newestbeginning says

              Oh the irony…”You don’t want to discuss either universal liberalism or left-libertarianism in good faith. You want to attack, i.e arguing in bad faith by not giving someone else a fair hearing.”

              Are there no mirrors in Canada? LOL

            27. Mensch59 says

              You also have demonstrated a complete inability or unwillingness to give anyone else a fair hearing who doesn’t conform to your ideological in-group.
              Your entire posting history is arguing in bad faith.

              The more I’m like you and your in-group in this regard, the more I desire to change. That’s the evidence of “mirrors in Canada”.

            28. Muhammad Abbass says

              Chomsky is a gatekeeper and an asshat.

            29. Collectivist says

              Even a stopped clock is correct at least twice a day . . .


            30. Muhammad Abbass says

              Chomsky would make a lousy clock then. Not even that.

        4. fluttershield mlp says

          Very intelligent but also a Zionist. Beware anything he says. Some truth but never says the whole truth; just like Israelis. Oh, is he a duel citizen?

  9. cechas vodobenikov says

    Covid merely demonstrates the US liberals r more fascist than their conservative brethren

    1. Mensch59 says

      Fascism is anti-liberal, but liberals are pro-fascist is your worldview, eh?
      You’re demented.

    2. Saint Jimmy (Russian American) says

      Maybe but they’re both full of shit. Cheap ass con artists not worthy to lead a children’s parade.

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